"Click!"

Mark Allen: Hey-ya Nathan... (walking in front door)
Nathan Gluck:  Hi there! Hey where's your bike?
Mark: I didn't ride it today. So how are you?
Nathan: I'm a-l-r-i-i-i-i-g-h-t...
Mark: I'm recording everything...on tape.
Nathan: Oh?
Mark: Yea see? The recording button is on...
Nathan: Oh Gawd.
Mark: It's audio... wait, what's that word? It's audio verité.
Nathan: You're as bad as Andy!
Mark: I...what?
Nathan: I said you're as bad as Andy! Whadda'ya deaf!?
Mark: Oh really?
Nathan: Oh...once when I was working in the ad agency over on 52nd street he was in the elevator and we were going up and he shoved his microphone in my face and said "Say something."
Mark: And what did you say?
Nathan: (pause) ...I don't know!
Mark: Hahahaha!
Nathan: Nothing I guess...
Mark: Ah-hahaha!...maybe that was good...!
Nathan: (mischievous smile) Y-e-e-e-e-s-s-s! So did you work today? (we sit at Nathan's kitchen table)
Mark: Oh yes and...oh have I got a story for you!
Nathan: Oh do tell!
Mark: I went there night before last because I wanted to tidy up the place really nice before the owner got back. And so I went after the usual hours they are open because I was working another job.
Nathan: Uh huh.
Mark: So I go in and it's really hot because it was raining and you know how the city heats up.
Nathan: Yea...
Mark: So turned on the air conditioner. And then I decide to vacuum! I'm like 'It will really make a good impression on the owner!' So I get out the vacuum cleaner and I move the artwork away from the walls and I'm shifting stuff around and putting things and  stuff on top of other stuff so I can get at the floors and the place is kind of an organized shambles or whatever because I'm  like 'I'm gonna do a really thorough job of cleaning!' and I really don't know what I'm doing and...
Nathan: Uh huh...
Mark: So I plug in the vacuum and start vacuuming and all the power goes out!
Nathan: Oh gawd!
Mark: Just like that! It's like totally pitch black and I'm like "Oh wow I guess I blew a fuse!" and I can barely see in front of my face and I find my way out and go talk to the doorman because I wanna ask where the fuse box is and he says "It's a really old building and the fusebox isn't in there, it's in the hall" and I'm like "Where in the hall?" and he says it's locked up anyway and I have to get the super to open it and replace the fuse for me and he's only there 9 - 5 so I guess I have to come back tomorrow!
Nathan: Hahaha! Why do these things only happen...happen to you? So wha'd ya do?
Mark: And I'm thinking "Oh great I just stopped by to make a final check-up and get the mail or whatever and now I have to come all the way back to tomorrow just to let the super in to turn the power back on!" So little did I know it, but when the power is knocked out like that it activates the silent alarm.
Nathan: Oh here we go...
Mark: So I'm back up there in the dark and I'm all pissed off and I'm stumbling around trying to make some sort of order of things before I leave and turning everything that had been on, off and I'm like crawling around on the floor all filthy and I'm like "only me..."
Nathan: Only you...
Mark: And suddenly I hear a noise at the front door and I see these two big X-Files-ish flashlights come beaming through the darkness and this voice is like "Anybody in here!?!?" and these two dark figures are moving into the space and I don't say anything at first because I'm thinking "What the Hell!?" and the flashlight moves down onto the floor and it's the police!
Nathan: Hahaha!
Mark: The alarm had gone of so the security company had sent the cops over there and I didn't even know the silent alarm had gone off so I was all confused and like "Whaa..?" and here I was crawling around on the floor like I was trying to hide and I'm all filthy and sweating now because it's hot and I'm in really shabby clothes because I had been biking and I had turned the place upside down to vacuum and I might as well of had a stocking over my head and a sack with a big dollar sign on it!. It totally looked like I was totally robbing the place! It was pretty pathetic.
Nathan: Oh my God...um, OK...
Mark: (pause) So um, let's start...
Nathan: I guess we're getting right into it!
Mark: ...yea, uh...you look different.
Nathan: Well last time I had my glasses on.
Mark: You lost weight too?
Nathan: Huh?
Mark: (apprehensive) ...you lost weight or something?
Nathan: (lights up) Yea-ah! Well you know I weighed myself and I'd lost five pounds, and then I weighed myself again two days later and I realized I had lost five more pounds because I was reading my scale wrong!
Mark: Wow...that's great.
Nathan: But I think I put two pounds back on...I don't know....
Mark: ...oh!
Nathan: And I have my glasses on usually...  and I also hacked my hair a little bit.
Mark: Cool.
Nathan: (pointing to recorder) So is this is on now?
Mark: It's on...everything's on tape baby!
Nathan: Holy smokes...yea you look like you had a haircut!
Mark: Yea I'm growing sideburns now, so...
Nathan: Oh you are? How long are they gonna be?
Mark: I don't know...remember when I had the mullets that were out to here? The mulletchops?
Nathan: I don't remember any...
Mark: You never saw me with them? Oh God it was hilarious...
Nathan: Oh I never saw you with muttonchops!
Mark: Oh yea I mean muttonchops! Hahahahaha!
Nathan: Yes muttonchops. Oh I always thought those were great! Because nobody has them...that was, goes back...
Mark: Yea...
Nathan: Well, [Art] Chantry I think grew some mutton chops but they weren't like um, the Austrian monarchy who had big bushes here...(motions around face)
Mark: The Austrian monarchy!? I thought it was like a 60's rebellion thing? Although that's how I know it, I guess everything goes back...
Nathan: No! It goes way back to 1880's...even earlier! And they grew b-i-i-i-g bushy muttonchops.
Mark: Wow. I liked mine but they were weird because it was basically like having big chunks of pubic hair on the sides of my face.
Nathan: Yes!
Mark: So I had to - I have limp straight hair - so I had to use special body shampoo on my hair, and then I had to condition my lambchops.
Nathan: Muttonchops!
Mark: Hahaha...oh whatever they're called!
Nathan: Well so...
Mark: So I...'cause Matt likes them so I...I grew them more, for a while.
Nathan: Who's Matt!? (really loud)
Mark: Matt's the guy I'm going out with. Remember I told you he lives in New Jersey?
Nathan: Oh yes yes yes...
Mark: So...I've been spending time with him.
Nathan: Where in Jersey?
Mark: He lives in Jersey City.
Nathan: Oh.
Mark: His address is so funny, it's...
Nathan: I think you said he can see New York from where he lives?
Mark: Yea, oh...it's a great view!
Nathan: Is he right on the river or where?
Mark: Yea, I mean...no! You have to walk to see that. But from his bedroom you can see the city because he's on the second floor and it's really um...really romantic I think.
Nathan: Oh I see!
Mark: But you walk a ways and there's a park and you're right on the water and Manhattan is this immense island, you can see both ways. At night it looks like a mother ship. I forget how big Manhattan is...
Nathan: Now...wait, what kind of apartment did you say he lives in?
Mark: A walk up.
Nathan: Oh... it's not in those big fancy ones that you can see from here?
Mark: Uh no, just two stories. A small building.
Nathan: Oh so he must be just south of those.
Mark: Yea I think. He lives in kind of the iffy neighborhood of Jersey City, at least some would think so. But it's changing and um, there are like these trendy new parts mixed in and Queen Latifa lives across the street from him in this new building. So it's all mixed up.
Nathan: Ah very interesting.
Mark: Oh um...oh yea his address is so funny because it's on Jersey Avenue...then Jersey City, New Jersey.
Nathan: Hahaha!
Mark: He says every time he gives his address over the phone the person starts cracking up!
Nathan: Yea! That's New Jersey for you!
Mark: Yea. So...I've been seeing him. It's going pretty good I guess. Whatever...we're just kind of dating... and, uh...
Nathan: Yes. Well I think that's what Louis is doing with Mark. He said 'Well he calls and sometimes we see each other and sometimes he calls and I'm not home and we're just dating and sometimes we see each other and sometimes we don't' and then he called me this morning from Mark's so he stayed over there...
Mark: Oh.
Nathan: And then he says someone in The Donkey Show had fractured his foot. So they asked him to substitute
Mark: Wow.
Nathan: So he substituted twice I think. He's supposed to come by here at 8 o'clock I think, I think he's going to the gym.
Mark: Oh cool maybe I'll see him. Oh, maybe I won't.
Nathan: Oh! You're not gonna be here for three hours! For two hours!
Mark: No. Hahahaha! So let's get going...
Nathan: So let's go!
Mark: I...um...
Nathan: I thought you had questions written down!
Mark: I do! They're written down in my mind.
Nathan: Oh...go on!
Mark: Um...hahahahaha! Uh...OK. I wanna know...um. Why don't you talk a little bit about what you were doing....um. Why don't you tell me a little about your art background. That's what I wanna know first. Your history.
Nathan: OK. I finished high school. I took an exam for Pratt Institute. But I didn't get in because I didn't have a decent portfolio. So then I took the exam for Cooper Union. It was very much a...a sort of intelligence exam - very easy to do. So I went a year to Cooper Union, which was free.
Mark: Oh.
Nathan: So I took a year of Cooper Union and then a year later I took the exam again at Pratt and got in, so I went to Pratt. I went to Pratt for three years and Cooper Union for one. At Pratt they were teaching Industrial design. That was, you know, because I decided...it was the up-and-coming field.
Mark: Uh huh.
Nathan: But after the first year I discovered the hell with this...I'm not gonna be designing automobiles or pencil sharpeners or radios! So they said I could take whatever I wanted. So I sat in an advertising class, I took a sculpture class, I took textile design, etc... Then I graduated from there. And then um...I had met Gene Frederico and two of his buddies at they were working at Bamberger  . So I went over to Bambergers and Bamburgers asked me to do two posters so I did two posters for Bambergers, one of which I showed to somebody at the Museum of Modern Art after the war and they liked it.
Mark: Oh.
Nathan: ...and they wanted it for their collection. So I gave a copy to them...but now they don't know where it is!
Mark: Oh!
Nathan: ..and the one copy I had got all dog-eared and I thought...oh I can throw this out because the museum has a copy!
Mark: Haha!
Nathan: And then I found out the museum doesn't have a copy. And nobody's got a copy!
Mark: Oh no!
Nathan: All I have is a little black and white snapshot.
Mark: Oh! Alright...so..
Nathan: So um, then of course I went into the army, and the army... you know I got sick the first week I was there, at Fort Dix. And I was in the hospital for about a week, and when I got out...everybody I had come into the army with, from my home town, had gone into the infantry! So I sat around and they shipped me off to the air force!
Mark: Oh!
Nathan: So I was in Bibiloxi, Mississippi, and then I was down in Denver, Colorado to go to school. And I don't know anything mechanical...so I flunked out of school. And then I became what was called permanent party. And...then I forget what I did. Maybe I was in the supply room or something. And then I was sent out to Kearns, Utah. Then after Kearns, Utah I became a secretary for the Jewish Chaplain. And then he got shanghaied out of Kearns, Utah off to Europe. And then I went to Denver, Colorado again to Lowrey Field. And then I was sent back to Utah to ship overseas and I went to New Guinea.
Mark: Whoa!
Nathan: So I was in the army from New Guinea to Australia back to northern New Guinea to the Philippines and Okinawa, Japan...and then I went back here, on Thanksgiving day, 1945.
Mark: Wow.
Nathan: Then after I piddled around, I got a job at an advertising agency.
Mark: Where?
Nathan: In...here in New York, it's no longer in existence. And after about two years I was interviewed for a job setting up a design studio doing textile designs for neckties and so that's where I was working from '52 to '53, and in '53. I had two other people helping me, we were designing tie fabrics. And we were doing all kinds of nice modern designs but it was for a real old fogey firm, so nothing  ever happened so I finally I said 'Can I have a leave of absence? I wanna go to Europe for six months!' and they said 'Oh we're disbanding the department!' so...that was the end of that.
Mark: Hahaha!
Nathan: So I worked temporarily for some guy for a while. Then I went to Europe for six months...then I came back. And after that I worked for that other guy again...then quit that. And then I started kind of free lancing around for a while until about 1955, when I started helping Andy. In the meantime...when I was working back at the advertising agency back in 1952... I um... hmmm, I guess I met Andy then. Yea and um...or maybe it was '51. And um... we kind of became friends you know, we'd see each other once in a blue moon.
Mark: He, wait, he was working there? Or wha...
Nathan: Oh no no no he was freelancing.
Mark: OK.
Nathan: Andy never worked anywhere he always freelanced.
Mark: Oh...
Nathan: And so in 1955, I ran into a fellow I knew on the street Vito Giallo, who had been helping Andy...
Mark: Can you spell his name?
Nathan: G-a-i-l-l-o. It means "yellow" in Italian
Mark: OK. Oh wait I should know that from Argento and Bava...
Nathan: And he said uh, that he was leaving and that I should go see Andy y'know, maybe he could...Andy wanted somebody. So I saw him and Andy said yea come help me.
Mark: OK.

Note: At this point Nathan imitates Andy's voice and persona in hysterical,  fey, high-pitched semi-whisper that lies somewhere between Robert Smith of The Cure and Michael Jackson. I will indicate  every time Nathan does this with: *Andy voice* or *super-Andy voice*

Nathan: So what would happen is Andy would call up and say *Andy voice* 'Oh can you come up tomorrow I've got a lot of work here'. he would say.
Mark: Mmmhmhahahaha!! (laughing at Nathan's Andy voice)
Nathan: So I'd go up and he'd dump all this jewelry on the table and go *Andy voice* 'Would you make a layout of all this for me?' and so I'd make a layout and...
Mark: You mean you would draw the jewelry, like illustration?
Nathan: Yea I would draw it, I would arrange it all on the paper and draw it and if he liked it and it was fine he would transfer it onto his way of working...over blotted and all that. So I helped him with all kinds of things for I think...ya'know I really don't know how long. Sometimes I think it's '62 sometimes I think it's even later. But uh... when he started doing his pop work that's when he stopped doing his commercial work. So he didn't need me anymore, at least at that point.
Mark: So now...didn't you design some of the original drawings of his commercial stuff? Like the shoes and birds and stuff? You're actually the person who drew many of those?
Nathan: Oh ...oh I did lots of things. For instance there's a big sheet of paper with all little rubber stamps on it of  birds and nuts and flowers and fruit and things... I carved a lot of those out of soap eraser.
Mark: Right. So you're the one who actually drew those early drawings?
Nathan: Oh yea! And then somebody gave Andy some wooden shoes and some wooden heels, and we glued the heels to the shoe forms and then Andy would say *Andy voice* 'Oh would you do one for me I wanna give someone one for Christmas. Will you do one with Santa Claus on it?' so I drew Santa Claus on you know, the toe part of the shoe. And I would kind of draw it with double lines and whatnot, try to make it sort of look like Andy. And then another time he's be like *Andy voice* 'Would you do one with Christmas ornaments?' so I did one with ornaments that were more like mine than his.  And then these things keep popping up in exhibitions you know, and they're credited to Andy.
Mark: Right.
Nathan: But it doesn't bother me too much you know because when you work in an advertising agency you're in the bull pen and the art director takes all the credit. It's like all the time I did windows for Bonwit Teller, ya'know, Gene Moore never gave you hardly any credit and when he did a book on window displays he didn't even use any of mine so I don't know.
Mark: Interesting.
Nathan: Yes.
Mark: So he was a freelancer and he had people working for him.
Nathan: You mean Andy?
Mark: Yea.
Nathan: Only me!
Mark: Only you? Just you?
Nathan: Well, only me but, sometimes he would pick other people's brains. For instance he went around with a fellow named Ted Carey. I don't know whether he was related to the governor at the time, or whether he was related to the Carey bus people... but at any rate he and Ted Carey - and Ted Carey was kinda cute - and uh... I think a couple of times he'd asked Ted Carey to do something. And he was once doing some illustrations for an etiquette book. It was an Amy Vanderbilt etiquette book.
Mark: Oh really?
Nathan: Yes. She was a ya'know...distant relative of the Vanderbilts.
Mark: Oh! Not a direct relative?
Nathan: Well ya'know yes direct yes, but not a biggie. Not wealthy or anything like that...
Mark: Hahahaha! Not Gloria! Hahahaha!!
Nathan: But Andy was always so interested ya'know *Andy voice* 'We-we-am-am-ga-ga...Amy Vanderbilt! Wow! So big!'
Mark: Hahahaha! So...he was really impressed?
Nathan: Oh yea! Because it was the name Vanderbilt.
Mark: Haha...OK...right.
Nathan: So he started this stupid book. And my god there were these endless corrections [by Amy], it was like whatever he did wasn't right ya'know. So finally he said to his friend Ted Carey *Andy voice* 'I'll give you the $200 they're paying me for the job...you do it!' So Ted Carey did that.
Mark: Oh...
Nathan: But then there were other little things like when he was doing that crazy cookbook, I think it was called "Wild Raspberries" I think. Susie Frankfurt - it was her idea, so they did this. And some of the drawings in there are Andy's and some I think are Ted Carey's.
Mark: Oh.
Nathan: For instance, Susie Frankfurt's daughter was having a birthday party and Andy says *Andy voice* "Oh Susie Frankfurt wants a pin the tail on the donkey game! So I have this screen...will you do it for me kinda like?" So I drew a donkey on it and kind of dotted it ya'know and drew the dot where the tail would be, and the other back side of the screen Andy stamped butterflies.
Mark: Hmm.
Nathan: And once many, many, many years ago I saw it come up for auction at Sotheby's. and sold for a couple of thousand dollars.
Mark: Wow. Um...so then...wasn't there a story you told me about some one... about how Andy got really excited about seeing paintings of comic strips?
Nathan: Oh yea! Andy, well...at some point he and Ted Carey used to go around, I guess go around to the galleries...
Mark: So wait, you're still working for him at this point?
Nathan: Yea. So he and Ted Carey used to go around to the galleries I guess. And Andy ended up buying a pencil drawing by Jasper Johns - at least I think it was Jasper Johns - of a light bulb.
Mark: Hmm.
Nathan: And oh he was so excited because he was now collecting. At the same time I was collecting things and he saw all the things I had and so he asked me if I would get him a Picasso and a Miro, so I ordered them for him from a print house in Paris. And so...at any rate Andy thought 'Gee, ya'know everybody was doing something' so he decided he'd like to paint again. Up till then Andy had been painting very pretty pictures, they were really like illustrations on canvas in sort of...uh, um... there used to be a candy mint which came out in different colors; pale orange, pale green, pale pink... and those were the colors Andy liked to use in his paintings. And so, he didn't do much with those paintings, they would just sort of lay around the house. So then he discovered the whole Jasper Johns/Rauschenberg school. So he decided he wanted to paint something. So he took his little magic lantern projector and projected some things from the comic strips like Dick Tracy, Superman, the Little King. And he would very freely brush them and... maybe there was a little balloon with a few little words in them or what. And it was very sort of brushy and expressionistic in the sense that it wasn't very confined or anything...it was very loose.
Mark: Hmm.
Nathan: So Ted Carey called him up one day and said 'Andy I'm down here at Lou Castelli's and some guy is painting comic strips!" and Andy says "Oh shit!"
Mark: Hahaha!
Nathan: And he says "I'm coming right down there!" so he goes down there and it's a Lichtenstein show. And Lichtenstein was doing the comic strips you know...and his comic strips looked like they were just enlargements from the newspaper you know, because they had all the little Ben Day dots and stuff.
Mark: Yea. How do you say that again?
Nathan: Ben Day.
Mark: Ben Day.
Nathan:Yes...it's actually the name of a man believe it or not...who invented this technique...
Mark: Uh huh. I always thought it was spelled "Bendoit".
Nathan: At any rate Andy thought he gotta to paint something different. So the question was: what should he paint?
Mark: Now wait...what was...there was a story...who... didn't you tell me a story where some people were designing shop windows and John Cage was involved in it or something?
Nathan: Oh yes
Mark: That was so fascinating.
Nathan: At Bonwit Teller! There was a little firm called Matson Jones. And it was Rauschenberg, Jasper Johns and John Cage.
Mark:  OK.
Nathan: And they would do some kind of widow displays and Gene Moore would hire them. So, they were doing things, but they've lived that down and only bring it up when they're talking about the very early days of Rauschenberg or Jasper Johns. And then Andy did windows for Bonwit's and I did windows for Bonwit Teller and that's where Andy's first comic strip things were shown.
Mark: Oh.
Nathan: And this fellow I was living with, Clint Hamilton put them in the window, of course he had to ask Gene Moore for permission and Gene Moore said "Oh sure!" so he put them in the window on 57th Street. That's when Bonwit's had a 5th Ave. store and then a little branch that was on 57th Street. And of course ever since then Gene Moore gets all the credit for showing Andy Warhol - but it wasn't he, it was Clint Hamilton.
Mark: Oh.
Nathan: And of course on night Andy decided he had to paint something other than that. And that when we get around to that story about Muriel Latow  - who was...I guess you would call her kind of an artist's agent or a scout, you know she would try to line people up with galleries or something. And I don't know...somehow she got to know Andy. Of course all of this stuff...you know, once Andy got involved in this painting stuff, he didn't want any body to know he was doing commercial work.
Mark: Oh...yea.
Nathan: And so you know he would say *Andy voice* "Oh Nathan would you go downstairs and have lunch now? Somebody's coming."
Mark: Oh...interesting. But he still had to do commercial work right?
Nathan: Well he still did commercial work for a little while...yea. Three years or so.
Mark: Oh! So it took three years for his paintings to catch...
Nathan: ...oh yea to catch on cause then he did the soup can and the soup can...well. But at any rate, Muriel Latow! So he said to Muriel one day *Andy voice* "Oh Muriel what should I paint?"  and she said "Well, what do you like most?" and Andy said  "Money" and she said "Well then why don't you paint money?" and Andy was like *super-Andy voice* "Ohhhhhh! That's a good idea!" and he gave her twenty five bucks.
Mark: Hahaha!
Nathan: So he got in touch with some fellows he and I used to do Christmas cards for, and they did a silkscreen of one of his drawings of a piece of money. So he printed that up.  And then of course they didn't want to do any more so he found somebody else to do his screens for him. At any rate, then he said to  Muriel *Andy voice*  "Now give me another idea." and so she started looking around, and for some crazy reason, on the bookshelf in this place Andy was living, on the book shelf was a soup can. And Muriel said "Why don't you do that soup can?" and Andy said "Ohhhh! That's another good idea!" and he gave her another twenty five bucks.
Mark: Hahahahahahaha! Twenty five dollars? Hahaha...
Nathan: Yea...so that's how he happened to do the soup can.
Mark: Hahaha! He gave her twenty five dollars for the idea that became like this...
Nathan: Yea!
Mark: Hahahaha!
Nathan: Yes! And of course the big joke is he painted the soup can all different varieties and things. And then he sent them all out, or shlept them all out to California where they were shown by a man named Irving Blum, in his gallery, and didn't sell a one.
Mark: Mmm...
Nathan: So I guess Irving felt sorry for him or what..
Mark: Uh-huh?
Nathan: And Andy was selling them I guess kind of cheaply, like maybe $1,500 or $2,000 or something.
Mark: Oh...wow! That's still a lot I think though...I guess...oh I don't know.
Nathan: Well, Irving Blum bought them all! And now I guess he's probably sitting on them and dolling them out slowly or whatnot...they're worth a fortune.
Mark: Wow.
Nathan: But um...then Andy got involved in the movies!
Mark: Wait! Before that, back up a minute...
Nathan: Yea?
Mark: There was a story where Andy asked for your help with silkscreens, or you were criticizing the way he was silkscreening, or...
Nathan: No...that's when he was still doing, when he started doing the silkscreens and he was doing Marilyn Monroe.
Mark: And so...
Nathan: And all the colors were off register!
Mark: And so...hahaha! Wait so he had done the soup cans already and the money...and then he started doing celebrities' faces?
Nathan: Yes.
Mark: And he took the pic...stole, pirated the pictures right?
Nathan: Well...he'd get pictures from movie magazines...
Mark: OK.
Nathan: ...or ya'know you'd go down to 42nd street and you could by a picture of a movie star you know, the publicity shot or what and, he would re-photograph those or something so they would kind of loose some of their values or whatnot.
Mark: Oh...
Nathan: And so he was printing up silkscreens of those, and he was doing...oh, it was Elizabeth Taylor I guess it was, and all the colors were off registered.
Mark: So these weren't silkscreens that he was doing, he had other people doing them?
Nathan: Oh, no somebody else made the silk screens, but Andy would print the silkscreens.
Mark: Oh Andy did the actual printing...OK OK...
Nathan: Andy did the printing. The only thing the silkscreen guy did was make the screens. Andy would print them. And he and Gerard Melanga or some other hangers around would help him squeegee the ink on.
Mark: OK.
Nathan: And that's when I told Andy "you know, if you wanna get good registration you need to put pins in the four corners so all the colors line up" and Andy goes *super-Andy voice* "Well I kinda like it this w-a-a-a-ay".
Mark: Mhmhaha!
Nathan: And I always say the moral of this story is that if he'd of listen to me he wouldn't have been where he was!
Mark: Hahahahahaha!!
Nathan: Because I mean my God these things are crazy! I mean they're all off register!!
Mark: Hahahahahahaha!!!!
Nathan: I mean the mouths are so big (imitates blurred Elizabeth Taylor face so he pronounces it 'mowfs aw so bug!') and...and the blue eye shadow and everything!
Mark: Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
Nathan: And it, ya'know...
Mark: Hahahahahahahaha!!!
Nathan: But everybody just thinks "Aaaahhhhhhh!" ...it's just like anything Andy did every body would go "Ooooohhhhh!"
Mark: Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
Nathan: Andy would go to an interview and he would be wearing shoes that were scrunched down in the back and pants that weren't pressed and a shirt that may have paint spots or ink spots on it...and everybody would think "Aaaahhhh! It's so fey! It's so c-u-u-u-te!".
Mark: Hmmhaha...
Nathan: It always harks back to when...it was the era when everything was "FUN!" and somebody asked somebody at Vogue or Harper's Bazaare who was gonna have a baby, and they said "Oh! What kind of baby are you hoping for!?" and she said "Oh a FUN baby!!"
Mark: Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!! What-hahahahaha!!! What year was this!? Hahahaha!!!
Nathan: Oh it was in the 50's! When everything was kind of "FUN!" (Nathan pronounces the word 'fun' at this point with hysterical, strait faced aplomb - I almost died laughing).
Mark: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nathan: And I remember one..
Mark: Hahahaha...were you having fun!?!?
Nathan: Huh? Oh yea! Oh I don't know...they were crazy. For instance they ran an article once about "25 Things To Do In The Summer" and one of the things was "Rub you heels hard on the sand." or "Read a chapter from such-and-such book" "Get up at 5 o'clock in the morning to see the secret part of the day." or "Put green grapes on a blue plate and eat them."
Mark: Pffffthahaha!!!!
Nathan: In fact I have it put away somewhere's because it's so ridiculous. And then, about ten years ago somebody ran a similar thing with stupid stuff like that!
Mark: Right...well so, so that was how his reaction was to your suggestion about how to silksceen was?
Nathan: Yea.
Mark: So when his commercial work stopped you were seeing him less?
Nathan: I didn't see him at all!
Mark: Hmmm...
Nathan: Oh I'd run into him once in a while. Once I ran into him at the Guggenheim museum...he was coming down the steps.
Mark: When was this?
Nathan: Ohhhh...I don't know...1960's or something. And, I said to him "How's your mother?" and he didn't answer anything back and he said "How's your dogs?" and I said "Well my dogs are all gone." Of course later on I found out his mother had died.
Mark: Oh.
Nathan: But he never liked to say his mother died. If people ever asked him he would say "Oh she's gone to Bloomingdales!"
Mark: Hahahahahaha!!! Oh...geez, I guess I never thought of Bloomingdales as...the afterlife!
Nathan: Well Mrs. Warhol was quite a character too because she wasn't...she didn't know english too well and...she once started to tell me a Bible story about Moses that was hysterical because everything was confused.
Mark: Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
Nathan: And she used to have a tape recorder, and she would send messages to relatives in Czechoslavakia..you know, somebody showed her...and she would sing Czechoslavakian folk songs for them.
Mark: On the tape?
Nathan: On the tape. And then somebody showed her how she could re-record...and sing along with herself! And so it sounds like a duet!
Mark: Oh!
Nathan: And so she would do that and she'd say...she would shlep down to some little place that's no longer in existence, where they would bundle up old clothes ya'know and stuff and they would send them to Czechoslavakia to her relatives. So was always sending packages...and always going to church.
Mark: Oh.
Nathan: And she would hit the bottle a little bit because I guess somebody I guess had told her that whiskey or scotch or something was good for her heart condition. So some people said they saw her sometimes tipsy but...I never saw her that way. But she spent most of her time...see what happened was, Andy was living at one point on 76th street or 75th street in a walk-up apartment and, she came over and there were mice and this and that and she thought "This is no way to live!" so, she  decided to stay. And so they moved down to a place between 34th and 35th street where Andy had an apartment on the top floor. And she was like the housekeeper and everything else, and she'd do his laundry and Andy would be like *Andy voice* "Mom where'd you put my necktie?" and "Mom where are my shoes?" So, at any rate, he was in this apartment on the 5th floor...and then...an apartment became available on the second floor. So Andy thought he would rent that one and fix it up nicely ya'know so he could entertain. Because he had at this point began to get into an "entertaining' mood. So...he bought some furniture from Serendipity and they made some suggestions about what he should do and this and that...but, nothing ever much came of it. I mean...and so um, he had two apartments in the same building. So after that he bought this house up on Lexington Ave. and about 89th Street. Which is still there - a little townhouse. And his mother lived on the lower level by the kitchen, because she didn't want to clean the steps. And there were at least... 1...2...3...four bedrooms in the house. Andy had a bed room. And... I don't know I guess somebody left a bed behind because there was a bed that's canopy was all torn and tattered. Looked like something out of...not David Cu...oh, "Great Expectations". And then on the top floor he had an area where he could paint or blow up things on canvas and paint and stuff.
Mark: Wow.
Nathan: And that's also when he went into the movies...then.
Mark: And what was your experience with that? He'd say "Oh I'm making a movie" when you'd see him?
Nathan: Well, he'd be making a movie and I'd hear about them. Like somebody eating mushrooms endlessly, or the Empire State building one...
Mark: For 8 hours!
Nathan: Yes! Or "Sleep" for...oh, no... the Empire State Building one was for 24 hours. From dusk to dawn...oh maybe 12 hours or something. But "Sleep" was 8 hours and what he'd do is he'd do a section of a person sleeping. And then every time he had enough money left lying around he would call up some projection or developing house and they would run off another couple of feet of this...until he had 8 hours.
Mark: God.
Nathan: And the reason he did 8 hours is because you get 8 hours of sleep!
Mark: Right.
Nathan: Be he'd get on the phone and he'd be talking to somebody who had gone to a party and he'd say *Andy voice* "Hi! Did ya get your 8 hours? Were there any pretties at the party?"
Mark: Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
Nathan: Yes!
Mark: So wait...now, lead that up to the story about the Brillo boxes.
Nathan: Oh, well then ya'know he was doing the soup cans and this and that and then he decided he wanted to do kind of sculpture.  And what was his idea of sculpture? Was to have some boxes constructed and...then he wanted to have them painted to look like, ya'know...boxes! So he wanted me to go over to the supermarket and get some boxes...so I came back with some very, sort of...nice boxes with interesting labels on them you know. Like one for Blue Parrot Grapefruit and this that and the other thing. And Andy said *Andy voice* "Oh no...I want something ordinary!"  So...then he got the Brillo box and he painted the Brillo box. And I think then he painted uh...soup can boxes? Oh I don't know...he did, ya know...and then he had an exhibition of these things, and he didn't sell a one of them. So they all came back to his house and I had to wrap them all in plastic, and they were all stored up in the top [of the house]. And I'm not sure, but I think there were still some wrapped in plastic down in the museum or the archives or someplace.
Mark: Oh...
Nathan: Well I guess because he never sold all of them, or maybe he did sell them all...who knows.
Mark: Wow.
Nathan: So that's the Brillo box, that was his sculpture.
Mark: Right...um, so...
Nathan: Then he was, then we introduced him to...well, much earlier on we introduced him to a friend of mine. John Wallowich's brother. Edward Wallowich was a very good photographer, but he never pushed himself so you never hear of him. However the Museum of Modern Art has some of his photographs, but they never drag them out I guess. At any rate, uh...he and Ed Wallowich palled around and they would go, ya'know...and they would go to openings at the opera, you know outside and they would photograph people...or maybe go to a party going on and he'd photograph people. Or he got invited to a party...and eventually he just dispensed with Edward and did his own photography.
Mark: Mm hm...
Nathan: And he was always crashing parties and taking pictures and everything. And then he was doing , he was starting the movies and then...so he was doing, I'm backtracking a bit here, he was doing his silkscreening in a fire house he was renting from the city for a dollar a month.
Mark: Oh my God! Those are great prices!
Nathan: Well...this was 1960-something...'62, '63.
Mark: Brilliant!
Nathan: And it came up at auction and Andy sent some friend of his down to the auction and somebody bought it for $100,000 which is more than Andy wanted to spend on it. And it was a big fire house, with an upper floor...and a big hole in the middle of the floor. And so...Andy then I guess moved, found some space at, found some space across from the YMCA on 45th Street between 2nd and 3rd avenues. That's where they papered the walls with silver paper.
Mark: Oh...that was where the original factory was.
Nathan: Yes that's the original factory
Mark: Silver paper or tin foil?
Nathan: Billy named...Bill, Billy...well there was a guy named Billy, I forget what his last name was...
Mark: Billy Name?
Nathan: But he called himself Billy name, yea..
Mark: He accosted me one time at a...uh, party.
Nathan: Oh he did?
Mark: Yea one of Andy Warhol's... people, Mary Waronov...she's an actress now.
Nathan: Oh yes yes yes
Mark: You know who she is? She had a book signing at Twilo, and all those people...Ultra Violet, all those people came.
Nathan: Oh really?
Mark: And Billy Name came...and he has a long beard now.
Nathan: Yes! Kind of a Santa Clause or...
Mark: And he was taking pictures of people!
Nathan: Yes! He's...he's become a photographer! He's the official photographer for the Gershwin Hotel down on 20-something street.
Mark: And I was sitting on the couch...I was really bored, actually I really didn't want to be there. And he like attacked me! He's like taking pictures of me sitting on the couch and I'm like "Yaaaagh!" and he gave me this big bear slap and was like "You look like you're having fun!" and I had no idea...I didn't know who it was until later. I had read so much about him in the past, if I had known who it was I would have probably been friendlier.
Nathan: But I forget what...his name was something else once...but he changed it to Name. And, of course after he got the whole place decorated with tin foil...I think he disappeared for a while.
Mark: Mmm...
Nathan: And then Andy had to get out of the building for some reason...I think they were tearing the building down...yea they were tearing it down to put up apartments.
Mark: Was he doing well with his artwork at this point though?
Nathan: (pause) To tell you the truth, Andy's done better with his artwork since he's dead than when he was alive.
Mark: Do you think he got a lot of attention when he was alive?
Nathan: He got a lot of attention, he sold a few things...and then he was doing the portraits of people...so he started making money doing the portraits of people, you know...the Skolls, and the president of this company and the president of that company and this other person who wanted a portrait you know, and he would take them over to Times Square and take them to this photo machine thing, ya'know where you drop quarters in.
Mark: Right they still have those.
Nathan: Right, and that's what he used.
Mark: Hmmm...interesting.
Nathan: He may have later on thought of photographing them himself because I remember once going down to the warehouse because they wanted to try to identify some of the people on some of the Polaroid's Andy had taken...
Mark: What do you mean the warehouse? At the archives?
Nathan: Well after Andy had died, there was a warehouse down on the 20's between 10th and 11th avenues where everything was stored-
Mark: Mm-hmm...
Nathan: And they had all these Polaroid's and they wanted to know who some of the people were, so I tried to identify some of the people if I could.
Mark: Who contacted you to do that?
Nathan: Uh...the people down at the warehouse, they all knew my name from something or another, from...
Mark: There wasn't an Andy Warhol Society at this point right?
Nathan: Well he had just died ya'know, and then all his, everything...his paintings and all went into the warehouse. And then the foundation set up.
Mark: Oh foundation.
Nathan: And it's all a very complex set up between the Warhol Museum and the Warhol Foundation...
Mark: Oh OK.
Nathan: ...and this and that. And um... (pause) hmmm, I don't know if I still have the book or not. I had a book once that described all about Andy's complications with the foundation and all. At any rate...um...so he was doing the movies...and he would traipse out to Montauk and then he'd traipse out to California. Once when they went out to California, it was just sort of the end of the pre-Pop commercial work...
Mark: Mm-hmm.-
Nathan: And so I had to pick up his mail or something like that or what. And later on I found out he bought property out on Montauk but I don't know why because he was not a person to sit in the sun or swim. I don't even know if he ever learned how to swim...I do know he did go to a gym for a while because the man that printed up some of his pre-Pop promotional booklets talked Andy into going to the gym with him. And Andy would work out there. So...at any rate that guy's name was Seymour Berlin and I later tracked him down and he's living out in New Mexico, he's the one who printed up the pussycat book.
Mark: Un-huh. OK now, most important of all...I wanna know: how did his hair progress as you knew him
Nathan: Well...his hair was just hair, and it sorta just went like that (imitates Andy's hair with his fingers)
Mark: Was it pretty fine though?
Nathan: He was very pale because he had some illness when he was a child - that robbed him of a lot of his pigment, so he was very pale and...I think on his neck and on his back he was kind of blotchy-like. At any rate...nobody thought too much of his hair except my friend Bob Saxon once, when Andy was at a Christmas party or something at my house and he was sitting on the floor and John came over and said "Good bye Andy!" and he put his hand on his head and he felt something move!
Mark: Hahahahahahaha!!! Ouch!!!
Nathan: So...I don't know, quite a while after that (pause while I'm fiddling with the tape recorder)
Mark: Yea? Keep talking...
Nathan: Quite a while after that, I happened to be cleaning up around the studio...
Mark: Uh-oh!
Nathan: ...and I found this manilla envelope! And I opened it up and here is this little thing of hair...
Mark: Hee hee ho ho...oh this is painful...
Nathan: And I thought "What the Hell is this it looks like it came from a little doll?" You know because it was just enough hair to cover a doll's head. And then I thought "Oh my God! This must be a hair piece that Andy uses to cover his bald spot!" Because I guess when he was ill he must have lost a lot of hair and he must have had a bald spot. And I guess...I don't know when or where...you know it would be interesting if somebody were to check all of Andy's photographs to see when he started wearing all these different hair pieces.
Mark: And at one point he just started wearing like, a giant one on top of his head?
Nathan: Yes! Yes. That horrible one that... flew all over and everything.
Mark: Hahaha!
Nathan: Because he probably thought you know, since it's a hair piece and everyone knows it's a hair piece he might as well just wear whatever he wants and if it's wild... ya'know, it'll get a lot of notoriety.
Mark: And he had a snap, I heard, planted surgically on the top of his head!
Nathan: Oh did he?
Mark: Because I read somewhere that at some party or dinner or book signing or something...
Nathan: You know a friend of mine had that done!
Mark: ...yea, well someone ripped it off his head
Nathan: Oh really?
Mark: Yea and apparently his friends that were with him didn't say anything because it was so apocolyptic-ly awkward and somebody looked while they were like...covering him...and there was a little snap on the top of his head.
Nathan: Oh well a friend of mine had snaps and he wore a hair piece! The only trouble was that after a while the...the snaps you know are under the skin.
Mark: Yea...
Nathan: And they turned green!
Mark: Oh my God.
Nathan: So he had the snaps taken out and he doesn't wear a hairpiece any more. But you see with the snaps on the hair piece you didn't have to worry about the wind blowing it off your head or anything like that.
Mark: Yea...right. Interesting. So...um...you kind of gradually lost touch with him at... at the...
Nathan: Yea...
Mark: ...at the point where the second Factory was being built.
Nathan: Yea I lost touch with him almost completely after the whatchamacallit was built. Except if you ran into him he was very cordial and very nice! But...uh...ya'know I didn't socialize with him or anything, or never...and, ya'know...I don't think he ever really did entertain [at his home].
Mark: Hmmm...
Nathan: I mean once he had this big fancy house down on 63rd street which was his last place...nobody was ever in it!
Mark: Hmmm...interesting.
Nathan: I mean, I remember reading about somebody that Andy rather liked...and they came home and uh...Andy got out of the cab and he never invited the person up into the house.
Mark: Interesting...so it almost like the scene at the Factory...he was just kind of there, and he was like a figure head...but it seems like the people doing the socializing were the people around him?
Nathan: Yea, well he also went to parties. I mean Carolyn Hightower (former director of the AIGA) used to say that he came and crashed a party once at her house.
Mark: Hmmm...
Nathan: But...ya'know they'd find out where there was a big party at mr. so-and-so's or mrs. so-and-so's ya'know and then Andy and a couple of people from the Factory would go...and they'd crash the party, and then I guess everyone thought it was wonderful that Andy Warhol crashed their party whoop-dee-doo!
Mark: Mmmhmhaha...
Nathan: I mean for instance Andy knew a woman named Mercedes D'Acosta , and Mercedes D'Acosta knew Garbo! So once they went to a picnic on the beach somewhere out on the island or what...and Garbo  was there, and I don't know what they were talking about or what...and Andy drew a little butterfly and gave it to Garbo.
Mark: This is Greta Garbo?
Nathan: Greta Garbo yes. And...as they were leaving, Andy discovered that Garbo had crumpled up the piece of paper and threw it away...
Mark: D'oh!
Nathan: So I think Andy retrieved it and wrote on it "Crumpled by Garbo"
Mark: Hahaha!!
Nathan: Now where it is I don't know. But um, later on Mercedes D'Acosta wrote a book about her relations with people and everything and her lesbian relations with some people and she mentioned Garbo...this and that. Garbo got mad at her and stopped seeing her.
Mark: Mmm...oh... well, tell me what you knew of him...about the guy that started Interview magazine with him?
Nathan: Oh! Gerard Melanga?
Mark: Yea.
Nathan: Well, Gerard, Gerard...I don't know how Gerard met him...but, uh...anyway...I guess maybe at the Judson Hall or maybe there was a poetry reading, cause I remember Andy saying *Andy voice* "Ohhhh! I've been meeting so many poets!" and one of them was Gerard Melanga who was at Bard College at the time. And so Gerard became his pal and would help him silkscreen pictures. And then...when Andy started the movies, Gerard acted in a lot of the movies! He...was in "Blow Job" and this one and that one...ya'know...and um, it's too bad Andy's gone because he coulda used what's-her-name, Monica Lewinski!
Mark: Hahahahaha!!
Nathan: At any rate um...oh they did "Lonesome Cowboys" "Chelsea Girls" (Nathan twangs 'girls' into a lisped 'g-u-u-u-r-r-r-ths') and Paul...he met Paul Morrisey somehow or other and Moririsey was directing his movies and then Andy got fed up with Paul Morrisey or Paul Morrisey got fed up with Andy and just went of on his own and he...ya'know, hasn't become a big director or anything. And um, ...so Andy was always palling around with Gerard Melanga...and that's how he got to meet him. And then I think Gerard went off to Italy somewheres...and all kind of crazy things were going on.
Mark: Well when did they start Interview?
Nathan: Well...they must have started Interview before Gerard went to Italy...and somewheres along the line...
Mark: Why did they start the magazine?
Nathan: Well they were going to the movies and they thought "Hey! We're paying for the movies all the time. Ya'know why don't we start a magazine and then we can go to movies for free!" So that's how they started Interview. I don't know where they got the money! I don't know whether it cost a lot or not. But once they started to do Interview you know they could go to the movies and they could write about the movies and they'd get to meet celebrities and everything else...and I think Andy got somebody named the Brants as investors and in fact eventually after Andy died they sold Interview to the Brants' or what.
Mark: The branch?
Nathan: No Brants, B-R-A-N-T-S. And I guess they're still running Interview I don't know.
Mark: Hmm interesting. I noticed at some point they took Andy Warhol's name off the cover
Nathan: Yea they just have "Interview" now.
Mark: Um. so...and you'd see him around town sometimes handing out the magazine right?
Nathan: Well...I did...I don't know if I saw him handing out...but my friend Howard Low saw him standing handing out magazine's once, and he gave one to Howard and autographed it. And then Howard said "How about give me one for Nathan?" and he said "Oh sure!" and so he wrote "To Nathan without love, Andy W."
Mark: Hahahahaha!!! Why?
Nathan: I don't know! He was being funny! Of course Andy's sense of fun was very juvenile.
Mark: Hahaha!!
Nathan: So Howard says to Andy "I don't think Nathan's gonna like this."  and he said "Oh all right." and he did another one that said "To Nathan with love." ...I think I have both of them put away somewheres.
Mark: Right...you gave me one once...
Nathan: Yea I think it was...
Mark: Well it was signed but not to you
Nathan: Oh yea, oh OK I thought maybe I gave you a Howard Lo one.
Mark: It's just his name and nothing else.
Nathan: Oh alright. But um...ya'know Andy was...before he became famous when he was doing his commercial work...ya'know, he was just an ordinary kind of kid who had wonderful knack of drawing and was doing these wonderful shoe ads ya'know...and people, he would go around to see art directors and people would say he was so "wonderful" so, ya'know "cute" because ya'know his hair was uncombed and his tie was just a knot...ya'know. And they just thought it was so fabulous!
Mark: Hmm...
Nathan: So, um...what was my point?
Mark: Wait while you're getting your point I'm gonna fast forward this and turn it over.

"Click!"

"Click!"

Nathan: ...and of course I don't ever remember Andy to have read a book. He...if he... he went to movies, and he would read movie magazines. And supermarket newspapers...and that was the just of it. So...my way of thinking is that he never became a great intellect. Now...somebody wrote a book once on Andy - I forget what the title was - and she was so ridiculous because she said "Oh Andy was so well read, because all you had to see was the size of the library that was auctioned off to Sotheby's!" and I thought to myself "You stupid idiot! Anybody can go out and buy a hundred books and fill a book shelf!"
Mark: Hahaha!
Nathan: Doesn't mean he ever read them! He never read a book!
Mark: Did Andy strike you as someone who was creative? Or was well read? Like...creative intelligence...or...
Nathan: No...he was creative artistically, conceptually. But I don't think he had any great brain...I mean...he...at one point a bunch of people he'd gone to school with were living in New York and they were having readings of plays, and they would put on little plays and everyone would read ya'know...and Andy was part of the group. And they said that Andy read so terribly that they were just like "Oh go sit down!"
Mark: Taaaa-hahahahaha!!!
Nathan: A lot, a lot of this stuff I'm telling you you can find documented in books...more or less exactly as I say them but...clearly close because...Andy just was clearly not a great intellect!
Mark: Mmm interesting.
Nathan: I don't think he can even write a letter maybe!
Mark: Hahaha!
Nathan: I've never had a letter or a postcard from him!
Mark: Oh! Oops!
Nathan: Although he got postcards from me because they're all down in the Warhol archives!
Mark: Hahahahahahaha!!!
Nathan: They are! All the Christmas cards I ever sent him - there they are down in the archives!
Mark: Hahahahahahahaha!!!
Nathan: Once when I was down there, we were leafing through something...and I saw something that was mine that he had borrowed!
Mark: Hahaha! Did you ask if you could have it back?
Nathan: No! They wouldn't give it back to me! It was in the arch...in one of those time capsules!
Mark: Hahahahahaha!!!!!!! Well thank God you didn't send him any important documents Hahaha! Or your phone book! Hahahahaha!!! Did you loan him any record albums? Hahaha! Oh I'm sorry you can't have your Byrds album back but it's in a museum because Andy touched it! Hahahaha!!!!!!
Nathan: Well what happened...yea really...what happened was Andy must've been doing a job for someone and Andy said *Andy voice* "Oh these look nice why don't you give me one or two and I'll take them along,,," and there they are down in there!
Mark: Hahaha! Sealed forever! Hahaha! That's the ultimate...like, you loan someone something and then they never give it back and then you're pissed whenever you think about it and then...hahaha...they DIE and it goes into a museum and you can only go look at it under glass!!! Hahahaha!!!
Nathan: Yes! Yes!
Mark: Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! Oh my God that's hilarious!!!
Nathan: It was a little thing like this big and it had birds and a little envelope - like ya'know in a repeating pattern for some wrapping paper or something. And the only reason I can think it was in there is because I loaned it to Andy.
Mark: Oh God...um, oh...did you ever see him at all after he was shot by Valerie Solanas?
Nathan: No...no.
Mark: But you heard about it.
Nathan: I heard about it...and I called up David Bourdon  who was a friend of ours and asked if anybody had told Andy's mother and he said "Yes." ...and you just couldn't go to see him because all of those Factory people were standing guard over him there and they wouldn't let anyone in they didn't know...it was bad enough that after he died and they had the thing at St. Patrick's I dropped a line to the...uh, the Factory and I got an invitation and the joke was, who needed the invitation? Because the place...the cathedral was packed! And half of them were people that just walked on in and stood around!
Mark: Hmmm...interesting!
Nathan: So I went in and I walked over down where his brothers were sitting and I said "Hi" and they were happy to see me after so long and we chatted...and uh, that was it.
Mark: Hmmm...it was a big mob scene.
Nathan: Oh it was! And then all these people spoke...Yoko Ono and this person and that person...and they mentioned interesting things like Andy used to go work in a...a little soup kitchen on Thanksgiving or Christmas day I guess since his mother was gone he had nothing else to do. I don't know. I...I just...I'm just amazed ya'know because I could never imagine Andy at a big party say with the Rothschild's or somebody there or big intellects there...what would Andy say? Uh-huh? Oh yea?
Mark: Well he was notorious for in interviews...and I always thought it was really neat how in interviews or whatever interviewers would really try to intellectualize his work and he would just give really uninteresting, or maybe one word answers.
Nathan: Yes. He would say *Andy voice* "Mm-hmm." or "I don't know..." ...and then one time there was an interview and Henry Geldzeler was there and would answer all the questions...and Andy would just look back and then Henry would answer.
Mark: Hahaha!
Nathan: And of course I have no respect for Andy Geldzeler because I heard that he went over to Andy's once when he was at Andy's and he went through a whole bunch of drawings that Andy must have done in the pre-Pop period and he threw them out! He sorted through them and through them out.
Mark: Ohhh...why?
Nathan: Why? Because I guess Henry Geldzeler didn't think they were good enough.
Mark: That's interesting...
Nathan: But Henry Geldzeler was a big fat, cigar smoking guy...who somehow or other waggled his way into the Metropolitan Museum of Art as curator of American art. And of course as a result of that he got to know Jackie Kennedy...I remember once going to the theater and there was Jackie Kennedy sitting a couple of rows ahead of us with Henry Geldzeler. And he had a lover I don't know who he was and they've had their paintings done by David Hockney.
Mark: It's interesting...ya'know, the clash between...uh...people that..ya'know I think ego is the driving force of mankind. It's what causes mankind to make technology and art etc etc.
Nathan: Uh-huh yea yea.
Mark: And uh...it's interesting living in New York because ego plays such a large part in people's careers...
Nathan: Oh!
Mark: ...to see someone like you just describe like...probably the whole reason he wanted that goal was so he could do things like sit next to Jackie O. in some seats...and yet he ends up having these...ya'know, important decisions...of...
Nathan: Well ya'know there's a picture in some book of Andy and...oh what was his name...tsk...like his side kick I can't remember his name now...and, at...they're at St. Patrick's...oh! not St. Patrick's they're at the Vatican and the Pope is there...and they're holding up little rosaries and Andy is just grinning from ear to ear...
Mark: Hmmm...Andy was really fascinated with famous people.
Nathan: Oh always! Famous people and movie stars! So fascinated with them!
Mark: Who were some of his favorites like when you were working with him in the early days? Do you remember? Any particular movies he liked?
Nathan: No...oh I'm sure he liked...oh! I remember he saw "Marjorie Morningstar" because he thought it would be fun to change his name to Andy Paperbag.
Mark: Hahaha! What's "Marjorie Morningstar"?
Nathan: It was a movie...it was a book by, uh...I forget who...and then it was made into a movie and it was about some Jewish girl who's name was Morgenstern which translates into "morningstar" and I guess how she struggled and went, rank...worked her way up to something or other... but ya'know Andy was just fascinated!
Mark: Andy wanted to change his name to Andy Paperbag?
Nathan: Yes he thought that'd be kinda cute.
Mark: This was before he was doing his pop art?
Nathan: Oh yea.
Mark: Mmmhmhaha! Was his real last name Warhol or ...it was wasn't it. Or was it Warhola?
Nathan: Warhol! Yea...well, Warhol is the male version of the name and Warhola is the female.
Mark: Oh OK
Nathan: At least that's what I understood once when somebody was talking about Polish names or Czechoslavakian names...but he dropped the name and was just called Warhol. Uh...I think...I'm not sure but I think one of his brothers still calls himself Warhola...but he has a cousin Jamie, who's an illustrator...and I think he uses the name...is it? ...Jamie Warhola? I think he uses the last name Jamie Warhola.
Mark: So...after he died...um, you were interviewed by a lot of people...and...
Nathan: Yes...ya'know people started to write books about the pre-Pop period because, ya'know...there weren't too many of us left. And uh...right now I don't know who else is left because once I was talking to somebody and I mentioned somebody's name and they said "Oh he died a couple of years ago and he gave all his art to such and such a university..." or something or other...
Mark: And you were in the Andy Warhol Diaries which...is kind of...en enviable honor I guess.
Nathan: Well just one little, one little thing because we had introduced Andy to this girl from Texas who  later became a protégé of Lucille Ball...
Mark: Mmmhmm...what was her name?
Nathan: Her name was Mildred Cook. And Mildred cook always wanted to play the violin because she felt that she could wear a dress with big billowy sleeves and when you played the violin the sleeves would fly around!
Mark: Hahahaha!!
Nathan: Well Mildred Cook was this big...kind of pluck-sy gal...she had a very narrow waist but b-i-i-i-i-i-g chest and b-i-i-i-i-i-g hips and she...she must have appeared on something or something...and Lucille Ball picked her up as a protégé and then her career started to skyrocket a little bit...she was this sort of...beach party...pictures ya'know...things like that. And she was in a few other things...and she'd first been...when we first knew her she was always down and out...and various people would give her money...or invite her to dinner...or supply her with Baby Ruth...candy ya'know and everything to keep her going. And after she became well known - so called - she dropped everybody. So she appeared on Broadway in "42nd Street" or something or other and Andy went back stage to see her. And that's where Andy mentions that he met her through me.
Mark: I think those phone call things the diaries were made from were um...done way into the whole Factory phase or maybe after it or something...
Nathan: Yea.
Mark: Um...what were some of the things with people you were around say...the period when he started to do his...ya'know, Pop work and started to become...kind of famous...what are things that friends of his that you were in contact with would say about him?
Nathan: Hmm? Well I didn't know any friends of his I just had friends of my own who knew of Andy and...ya'know they didn't think too much of the Pop art.
Mark: Mmm...
Nathan: My friends George and Buddy in fact poo-poo the whole thing as a matter of fact. They had a drawing...some drawings...they had a couple of drawings of Andy...a couple of portraits of him which they sold. And with the proceeds from that they took a trip. And recently I sold uh...a Andy pussycat book.  Only because I'd been having it here for so long and what was I gonna do with it? And...if you go give anything to an auction gallery, you're gonna have to pay a10 percent commission, the person who buys it is gonna have to pay 10 percent and...there's this one gallery in New York called Susan Sheehan Gallery, and um...I happened to..you know George and Buddy had happened to sell their things to her and so I went down there and I got to know her and I told her about the book and she said "Oh..." she's got a customer who would love to buy it so I said "Alright." so I sold it to her.
Mark: Um...
Nathan: But, ya'know...if like...you get anything for an auction you pay for it. So when she was just willing to pay what it's worth and there's no hassle or anything...
Mark: What um...so do you think his Pop art was considered avant guard at the time? Or did he even...did anyone even...
Nathan: Oh no...well there was avant guard at the time because that whole period was avant guard...everybody was doing everything...they not only had Pop art there was Op art, do you remember Op art?
Mark: Yea...Performance Art...
Nathan: I mean what ever happened to Bridget Riley who was a big name in Op Art? You don't hear of her anymore!
Mark: Hmhaha!
Nathan: Ya'know and there was another guy named Allan D'Arcangelo...he used to paint highways seen through windshields on automobiles.
Mark: I remember that yea...
Nathan: But ya'know...and the museums have all this stuff and I'm convinced that 20 years or so from now they'll start looking through this stuff and be like "Hey! We don't need this stuff anymore!"
Mark: Oh...interesting. Um...well why don't you tell me a little about your collage work. (click here to see a small sample of Nathan's collages)
Nathan: Well ...well first of all I should tell you that when Andy came on the Pop scene...Jasper Johns and Raushenburg didn't want to have anything to do with him. Little upstart ya'know!
Mark: Oh...interesting.
Nathan: But then of course when he became to be so well known and so...everything ya'know...they all became buddies. And of course Mr. Raushenburg is so smart he has a foundation.
Mark: Right.
Nathan: So that whatever he does, the money can go to this foundation or...
Mark: Mmmhmmm...
Nathan: Uh... I had done collages a long time ago. I was doing little paintings in which I would paste on little engravings here and there...you know on big backgrounds. Then when we were down in St. John once there was a...uh..oh and, no it wasn't St. John...was...it was in Martinique once, it was a rainy day and we didn't have much to do so I did a collage. And then...I was doing all these little paintings, I would make little drawings and I would Xerox them and I would color them different ways and make changes in their composition and so on...and I was doing these for years up until about 1955 when I suddenly thought "Ya'know I've come to a dead end!  I've gotta think of something else." So...I started to do collages because...I had all the stuff I had accumulated!
Mark: So you saved stuff that you liked? Papers and ads and labels and stuff?
Nathan: Yea I'd saved stuff when I was in Europe. And if I'd see an interesting um...oh...piece of graphic something or other I would save it. So I have this whole collection of stuff I can use for collages. And uh...so I did a did a whole bunch of them, and I took them over to Reinhold Brown Gallery...because I just wanted to get an opinion...and I met them...
Mark: When was this?
Nathan: Oh I don't know...I think this was 1997 when I saw them but, I knew them a couple of years before that because somebody started a poster society and...George Cheney called me up and said "Oh! I see you're gonna be one of the directors of the poster society!" and I said "What?" and he said "Your name is here as being on the board of directors of the Poster Society." ...I said "Well I don't know anything about it!" and he said "Well why don't you call so and so" so I call so and so and he said "Oh yes! I meant to call you if you would be..." this was still while I was at AIGA, because you know with my familiarity with graphic design, they wanted me on the Poster Society...the board of directors...so...I was on the board of directors and of course the Poster Society closed for about a year or two, we had a big grant from Champion Papers and then when we blew that...there wasn't any money coming in! We had subscribers who joined as members and they got a little quarterly book which was called "P.S."...meaning Poster Society and...um...my idea.
Mark: Hahahahaha!!
Nathan: ...and then the whole thing sort of petered out. So that was that with the Poster Society. So that's where I met Reinhold Brown! So...we were kind of friendly ever since. So I though I would show them the collages and see what they think of them...So...um... (pause) ...what...what's her...Susan! ...geez I'm getting so forgetful! Susan loved them...was like "Oh! They're so fun and charming...what are you gonna do with them?" and I said "Well I'm gonna try and find a gallery and have an exhibition." and she said "We'll give you one!" I said "Great!" ...because...they ...then, there...they have a reputation...and so...they had an exhibition and there was an opening and we sold eight of them! ...and then...uh...lo and behold it got written up in the New York Times by Roberta Smith! (click here to look at the New York Times review)
Mark: Wow...
Nathan: Y-e-e-e-a!
Mark: And so you have your upcoming show at the...The Warhol Museum...in Pittsburgh.
Nathan: Well...I'm waiting for this guy to come up from the ...um...Warhol Museum to tell me whether it will be in the...the Spring or in the Summer...
Mark: Wow.
Nathan: ...and how many collages..he thought we could show 30 or 40 collages...
Mark: Wow...
Nathan: And then he thought we could show some things that I helped Andy with so we could tie it all in.
Mark: Maybe you can get your stuff back! Hahaha!
Nathan: Because so far I think they've had, uh...they've had Lou Reed down there and who else...I don't think they've had a real art show of anybody that worked with Andy or what I don't know...
Mark: Especially in that period...
Nathan: Yea...so that's that...and I've done as many collages since 1995...oh...oh yea I first started doing the collages since '95...so the show was in '97...and since then I think I've done as many as I did in that two year's before. But it's so funny...I just keep forgetting names from time to time...like the other...like I was searching for Susan's name...I knew it began with an "S" and I kept wanting to say Sonya!
Mark: Oh please I forget my roommate's names! Hahaha!
Nathan: Well...for two days I was trying to remember this guy's name...who also knew Andy...and knew the guys who did the Christmas cards...who, who was sort of  an anthropologist, or I don't know if he was an anthropologist but he was sort of an adventurer...he went off and got initiated into some New Guinea tribe or in Borneau or somewheres. And all I could think of was it began with "T" ...his first name was "T" and then "S" ..."T" and then "S" ...I couldn't think of the name...for a whole day...a half day and the three quarters of the next day, and then suddenly it hit me; Tobias Schneebaum!
Mark: Ba-hahaha!! What a name!
Nathan: I know! And why should I forget it? Such a crazy name? Such an odd name? But he was a ...nice guy. He was not a very...you know...he was not a..."beauty" like Andy would say...but Tobias had an interesting career! He wrote a couple of books  on his adventures in New Guinea...and where he went native-like and they accepted him and so on...and I was just reading some...a book by a guy named Bruce Chapwin who was also a kind...he called himself a kind of a "nomad" ...so he was kind of an adventurer. And of course way back in my childhood I used to read...there was a guy named Richard Halliberton  who used to do things like that. He swam the Helles Pont because he wanted to imitate Lord Byron and then...um he also went off to India and sneaked into the Taj Mahal so he could see it in the morning as the dawn was coming up, and then there was a guy name Paul De Chaillou, a Frenchman who wrote about darkest Africa...I just wrote a letter to a friend and um, those days it was darkest Africa! I remember they made a movie in the late 20's or early 30's called "Trader Horn" and everybody in the movie - they did it in Africa - they all came down with sleeping sickness and died.
Mark: Oh no...ugh.
Nathan: Yes! But you know after the second World War Africa's like a...ya'know...big skyscrapers and everything. Of course that's only in the major city. You leave the major city and you're out in the middle of the mud huts!
Mark: Hahaha!
Nathan: Welllll..... (pause)
Mark: Well is that it?
Nathan: I don't know is it?
Mark: Yea I think so...
Nathan: Well...Andy used to do so many crazy...just to show you how...he would walk around with bird seed, and he'd give some in little envelopes to people and he's say *Andy voice* "If you plant it you'll grow birds!"
Mark: Hmmhaha!
Nathan: Or once he had a little cap pistol and caps you know those little paper things?
Mark: Yea...
Nathan: And he would fire that as we were walking down the street...you know...just for the effect like. To spook people.
Mark: Funny...he seemed sort of passive aggressive about attention.
Nathan: Hmm?
Mark: He seemed sort of passive aggressive about attention.
Nathan: Yea...he, he ...I guess ya'know because of his looks. And I guess because he figured that since he wasn't a beauty, the only way ya'know...people would uh...pay attention to him was to be...to be... as you know people say "outré!" (Nathan slurs out the word 'outré' in a mock French accent - 'ohhhh-traaaaaaaayyyyy!').
Mark: Hahahahaha!!
Nathan: You know...(mock French drawl) "un-u-u-u-usual!"
Mark: Hahahahahaha!!!! (pause) OK...cool. Well thank you so much Nathan.
Nathan: Oh you're welcome
Mark: The uh...the whole thing is gonna be transcribed on the tape..on my...uh...
Nathan: Oh God! How...Mark Allen on the internet...I'll have to give people that..."markallencam dot dot dot squiggle squiggle...oh God!
Mark: Well...hahahahaha! I'll give you all the information.
Nathan: Yes!
Mark: It'll be on there forever.
Nathan: *gasp!* Ohhhh!
Mark: And after a while it'll start showing up on search engines...you know...when someone punches in "Nathan Gluck" it'll show up...
Nathan: Yea! I'm still trying to find out whatever happened to Joseph Fiennes! Remember him? In "Shakespeare in Love"? Did you see "Shakespeare..."
Mark: Oh...oh yea! Him? He's all over the place! ...on the inter...
Nathan: Yea...yea but...but he hasn't had a movie in New York since "Shakespeare in Love"!
Mark: Ohhhh...weird...
Nathan: But uh...
Mark: I think it's pronounced "fines".
Nathan: "Fines" I don't know "fines" "phoenix" I don't know the what not whatever...but uh...Jim O'Connell once looked him up and sure enough there was a...uh...a kind of a website with letters form people saying *mock fey voice* "Oh you're so wonderful!" "Oh I would love to be your boyfriend!" ...you know from fellows and girls I ...whether...ya'know I don't know whether he's gay or not!
Mark: Probably...
Nathan: Then there was this big thing in Interview I think about him.
Mark: I saw that.
Nathan: But uh...there hasn't been a movie since then!
Mark: I look it up when I get home on my...
Nathan: Yea I keep looking to see...
Mark: Welll...uh what's I'll do is look on IMBD Movie Database and they tell you anything that's in any...uh, stage of production that an actor is involved in.
Nathan: Oh...yea...I'll give you lots of names to look up...I've been trying...nobody...oh I think you did look up these people...Gorgio Camici didn't you try to look him up once?
Mark: Is this a friend or celebrity?
Nathan: Afriend...
Mark: Oh yea!
Nathan: An Italian fellow nam...

"Click!"